Let’s Talk with Winny Vee
Welcome to the ‘Let’s Talk’ Podcast. I’m your host Winny Vee, and on each episode, I’ll be talking to various guests about their life journeys, experiences and achievements in the hope that they can inspire others to pursue the reality of their dreams. So with that in mind… ‘Let’s Talk!’
Let’s Talk with Winny Vee
Let's Talk - Episode 3: Nathan Durkin aka Rugby League Guru
Get ready for a ride in this great conversation with none other than Nathan Durkin, popularly known as Rugby League Guru. Prepare to be captivated as Nathan takes you through his unexpected journey from a teacher to a full-time Podcast host and Rugby League enthusiast.
From reminiscing about his memorable footy moments to sharing his challenges in teaching and his ultimate transition to podcasting, Nathan’s passion and dedication shine through. Not only does he share amusing anecdotes, but he also offers a glance into the grit needed for podcasting, and how he navigated the hurdles to reach his audience. The thrill doesn’t end there. Nathan delves into some serious issues plaguing the Rugby League landscape, spilling the beans on declining grassroots participation, AFL's growing influence, and the shifting player base in the NRL.
In the final leg of this podcast, we confront the digital age challenges that rugby league faces. Nathan shares his views on the mental health impact of social media on players, the changing technology landscape in the game, and how he handles online criticism. So buckle up and join us on this enlightening journey through the life of the Rugby League Guru - a compelling ride filled with engaging storytelling, insightful commentary, and an exclusive peek into the dynamics of Podcasting and Rugby League.
Welcome to another exciting episode of let's Talk. I'm your host, winnie V, and in this episode I have a special guest with me who needs no introduction to the podcasting community, but to those that aren't familiar with podcasters, or what you would call alternative sports journalism or media, I'm with the master podcaster himself, nathan Durkin, aka rugby league guru. Now, nathan is a seasoned podcast host and producer with a passion for creating engaging and informative content in relation to the beautiful game that is rugby league. Now, aside from his own podcast, rugby league guru, he's also one fourth of the well-received and highly popular bloke in a bar podcast. So sit back, relax and get ready to learn more about Nathan's life journey, experiences and achievements on let's Talk with Winnie V. Hey, barry, how are you? I'm good mate. What an introduction. Thanks, thanks. Yeah, it took me a while to come up with that, but yeah, thanks for that. Now, nathan, what do I call you man? Do I call you guru? Do I call you Nathan?
Speaker 2:Pleased for the love of God, call me Nathan. There is nothing more cringy than me, than when I'm just talking to. You know, blokes, I get along with whatever, and they call me guru. It's a lot, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I do want to ask, though, with guru was that a nickname that you always had as a kid, or was it something that came along with your podcast?
Speaker 2:No, mate definitely came along. It actually came along before the podcast. It's a funny story actually. My mates, we take our super coach very, very seriously and we plan a draft competition and yeah, the boys decided one year we'd give him in a felago.
Speaker 2:And I think to my mates I came across like I knew a lot about the NFL. All I knew was my Pittsburgh Steelers and nothing else. So I joined this NFL fantasy comp. It was a draft and I got to about two days before draft day and thought and like had to look at all the players and thought I know none of these guys outside of Ben Roffelsberger and a couple of Steelers. I know nothing. So I jumped on Twitter I'd never even thought about it before, I'd played super coach and everything, but never thought about it and I just found a guy on Twitter to give advice on a NFL draft and he was called the fantasy guru and mate.
Speaker 2:I honestly I did not make an educated decision on my own. The entire year I went off everything this bloke said and I think I came second or saying I didn't win it but I should have come to dead last for what I knew. And this guy got me through the whole year and off the back of that I sort of thought, maybe like no one's doing this for super coach. There was a couple of people out there, but they hadn't gained a big following yet and I hadn't heard of them or anything yet. So I thought, you know, I might as well give this a go.
Speaker 2:And it actually started. I made I was originally super coach guru and I made it trying to, you know, trick some of the boys into asking me questions and then when we're all away on the beers on draft weekend, just get it up and say, oh, this bloke asked this, this bloke this. Which was all good and well, it was a great plan. I had one of the boys hook line and sinker. He asked me a heap of questions. I was ready to spring it on him and then the night before draft night we both got wasted and I ruined the surprise there. But it's crazy to think back where it started, literally trying to gee up a couple of mates to now being a full-time job. It's honestly unbelievable.
Speaker 1:No, that's also my love, that, bro. And it's funny because I I'm big in NFL fantasy and I have a friend who he was a newbie when he joined us and we've been doing it for about 11 odd years now and he's a 49ers fan. So when he first joined he selected all 49ers plays and we just sat there and let him do it. I say I know what you mean there. I'm not knowing at first what it's all about, but that's really cool. Now, nathan, I just want to take it all the way back to your childhood, bro, and we'll start with where you grew up and what your childhood was like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, I was. I had a great childhood. To be honest, it was unreal. I lived in sort of South Sydney sort of area, bounced around a few houses and whatnot. But I had a great childhood. Mate had a great group of mates. My mum did everything she possibly could for me to give me the best possible life I could. So I wish I probably had a more interesting story for you, to be honest with you, mate, but I was. I was very lucky. There's there's no doubt about that whatsoever. So it grew up in South Sydney. Mate played footy not very well, but played a heap of footy, absolutely loved it growing up. And yeah, mate, I. Honestly I couldn't find a complaint about my childhood if I tried oh man, that's great.
Speaker 1:I might as well ask you played footy as a kid. Who was your footy team? What footy team did you support?
Speaker 2:To be honest with you, I've and people find it bizarre, but I never, I've never really been like a follower team sort of guy. I've always been. I've always been very much so like. I follow favorite players and it's funny you know and all my mates that I went to high school with they all give me so much crap about this.
Speaker 2:But you know, growing up I was living in Sydney funny story when the when the Sydney football stadium was built in I think it was 1988, they offered a membership and back then it was about $800 a year, which then was astronomical. It was just ridiculous because all of us was a stadium. There was no gym, there was nothing attached. It was just 800 bucks to be able to go to the footy. And I remember well I wasn't alive at that point, but my old man brought a pass for it and all of his mates said you're crazy, what are you doing? You're off your head, it's too much money. Well, as it turns out, an SFS membership whatever you sign up for on the day to pay, you pay that forever. So in 2023, we've got an SFS membership for $800 bucks if you are, if you want to sign up for an SFS membership right now, like the one we've got. You're looking at about 17k, so it's, and you're on a waiting list, so I was very lucky in that regard, mate, they're growing up the Sydney football stadium.
Speaker 2:I had a member's pass that I could go whenever I wanted, so obviously I grew up a lot watching the Chooks there, watching Brad Fittler, so he's always going to be my favourite player of all time. Then the Bunnies came back into the comp so got to see a bit of SFS Sydney, but that was pretty boring in the early years. As you'd know, mate, that was a tough little gig to watch. But it's funny like I was cheered for Brad Fittler, absolutely loved him, loved everything about him. And then, because I'd always beat the Roosters games and I'd go there for the Jersey flag, the Premier League, the whole thing, I'd be there all day, and so I started to watch their New South Wales Cup team quite a bit and they had a guy on their team who was just small than everyone else but he just he just hung in every game. He used to keep full goals and goals small, and he sort of became my favourite player in that team and then he went to the Dragons. His name was Jamie Sauer, yeah, so I watched him come through.
Speaker 2:So then when Freddie retired, that was about the time that Sowie came in for the Roosters. Then he went to the Dragons. So all my mates sort of give me shit that you know. I went for the Roosters. I was actually just cheering on Brad Fittler, then I went to sort of cheering on the Dragons just to follow Jamie Sauer. And it was funny, of course, when we're in year 12, that was 2010, roosters vs Dragons in the Grand Final and all my mates are Chooks fans pretty much, so it was great to see Sowie get one over them in that game. But, mate, I honestly I never really followed the team. I always followed players and now, as I'm getting automated, honestly I follow my super coach players. That's who I follow essentially. So it's worked out well that I'm not. I don't believe any way that I'm biased towards any team or against any team, which is, you know, in a strange way, worked out perfectly for what my job's ended up being.
Speaker 1:That's so true, man, and it's funny that you're a fan of Fittler, because I'm a big fan of Fittler as well. I'm a Pinnard fan, I'm a diehard Pinnard fan. But even when he left Pinnard and went to the Chooks, I was still, you know, discreetly cheering him on. Yeah, I think he's one of the best, especially with what he accomplished at such a young age New South Wales Premiership origin and I think he may have still been the teenager back then. Awesome, yeah. So that's that's awesome, man, that we have a bug that we really care for now. I just wanted to ask about your family dynamic. Are you a only child or do you have brothers and sisters?
Speaker 2:Mate, I am an only child. My, my parents put up when I was about five or six or so and then my old man remarried and now he's got two younger boys. So I got sort of half brothers. So I don't consider myself an only child because I consider them my brothers essentially. They're both teenagers, so they're both.
Speaker 2:My oldest, josh, he's 18, so they're both, you know, 12, 12 or 15 years younger than me, which has been cool in some respects. I've got to watch them, you know, come through and play footy and help them out throughout that and it's sort of I've always been at an age where I've been able to appreciate watching them grow and and develop and everything. So, yeah, I wouldn't say I'm an only child. I've got two brothers, but it is a little bit. I'm probably more of almost a uncle of them than a brother, which I love, to be honest with you. I saw I avoided all the dribble of all the fights and all the arguments and everything like that and I just get to enjoy the good bits for the most part now that's.
Speaker 1:I love that man. Now, nathan, seeing as you spend a lot of time at the footy as a kid, are there any memories, that footy memories as a kid that that you cherish, with any good footy games that you were able to watch live, that you'll never forget?
Speaker 2:yeah, mate, I was very lucky as a kid. Obviously I got to be there, for so many moments at the SFS are unbelievable. I was there the day I think it was the the kangaroo's bit, the Kiwis in the Tri Nations final and Darren Lockhear scored in extra time. I was there for that whole game. That was unreal. So many memories the SFS. But I also, you know, as I said, I live with my mum growing up and me and my dad for you know, my entire childhood we always had a thing that we'd always go to Grand Final day and I'd essentially outside of. Since I've started doing Guru because I just need to sit home and watch the game. I think I missed two Grand Finals in 20 years. So some of those moments from that Grand, those Grand Finals, like all the great moments, I was there when Scott sat Lamey's tackle. Yeah, brother, I remember there was one year we got we got last minute tickets to the Tigers Cowboys game and we're sort of in a weird spot. We were like on the corner post and up in the air and and I'd never sat there before and I don't know if you've been to that stadium but there's not many good seats there and they. These weren't great realistically, but you're at the Grand Final, beyond real. And I'll just never forget when Benji Marshall went through and he came off his right foot to just to throw the flick, his torso was facing directly to us. I think we're on the best possible angle for that play 2015. Never forget, I was directly, like there was a direct line between my eyesight first and and the post. When he took the shot from the sideline and you know, you, you see on that tape there's the balls in the air first and sort of starts to throw his hands in the air. Bro, I would have put my house on. That thing was going over in the air. It never looked like it was missing. I couldn't believe it when it hit the post. So, yeah, mate, and like I, I think a big one for me, like I'm not a South Sydney River overdose fan, but growing up in South Sydney and watching them win that Grand Final, ending that drought, it's that was. I've never heard a noise like that before, especially when GI scored that try at the end. So it's hard to narrow it down to a single moment because I was so lucky to be there for so many. But the guy that we mentioned before Brad Fittler. I was there the night in state of Orogymary, charged the ball there, yeah, and regaled and scored, and I'll tell you a story about that. That was so that year.
Speaker 2:The major sponsor was Wizard Homelands right, mark Boris, of course, incredibly successful Mark on the board of the Chilks and whatnot. And in a small world, I was actually going to school with his young bloke. Young bloke was a loose cannon. Anyway, I go out to that game on the Wednesday night. Thursday afternoon is when we had our our footy training and it had rained that day and we showed up.
Speaker 2:Training was one of those you know afternoon sessions when it's rained and there's mud everywhere and it's going to be unreal. And I and my dad was the coach and I'll never forget I'm standing there and this James kid shows up late and he's behind me and I just hear my dad go, you're kidding, take it off. And I turn around. He was wearing Brad Fittler's jersey from the night before such a footy adding Brad. So he snaked it from his old man and then, about two years ago, I had Mark Boris on the podcast and I told him that story and off, mike he goes. Mate, I've been looking for that jersey for 25 years. I've got no idea where it is no idea. So crazy how that sort of played out. That's like the greatest moment in my you know experiences with our league. And then he is showing up to training the next day ready to dive in Martin like it's just a one in a million jersey, you know yeah, what a story, and that's something you could have make that up.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. Now, nathan, I just wanted to ask, prior to podcasting, what were you doing? Work wise mate.
Speaker 2:I was like sure teacher, I finished high school and I didn't really. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. To be honest with you, and I'm sort of my little brother sort of at that point he finished high school last year and he's not quite sure what he wants to do and I ended up in teaching at 18, 19. Is that what I wanted to do? I don't know. To be honest with you, I think there's so many guys out there at that age and I'm watching it with my brother and his mates that everyone just expects you at 18 to have your entire life sorted out yeah and it's just and like you've, you've got kids at all.
Speaker 2:I'll be at that age soon and I just find it so puzzling why 18 year old kids who a week ago they weren't allowed to drink alcohol, but they have to have their life sorted out right now. They have to know what they want to do. It blows me away. And I ended up in teaching and I was very lucky. Once I got into it, I worked in the industry and everything and I did genuinely, absolutely love it for a couple of years. And then it's just, it's brutal, mate. You just, you just get work to the bone and, yeah, there's just always a problem, there's always something going on.
Speaker 2:And I, yeah, I was a teacher for a couple of years. I loved it, mate. I was always a primary school teacher, so I was always sort of a year five, year six. I'd always end up with the troublesome students and all that which I loved. I absolutely love that, because they all played footy and I got along with them like a house on fire, you know. So that was always good. But, um, mate, respect to teachers I can't Even now I'm not doing it when I hear people say, oh, they get so many holidays Like you get no holidays.
Speaker 2:You work in the entire time. I've got so much respect for all teachers out there and I believe you said pre-podcast that your wife is kind of in that industry. She'd know all about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she does. She says the teachers have a hard, especially when it comes to things like being paid on time, just simple things that you know every other nine to five person is accustomed to, like you know, like clockwork, you pay on this day and so forth. So, yeah, she said they. Yeah, they do a lot and there's a lot of challenges which I did want to follow up with. On that question, what were the challenges you experienced as a teacher and what were some of the achievements you experienced as well?
Speaker 2:I honestly might probably be the biggest thing that I struggled with and I still struggle with it today. Like the organization you need to be a teacher is just unbelievable. Like I was just waiting in it 90% of the time but I had a good relationship with the kids so I was sort of able to get away with it for some extent. But like when I see teachers that come in and I can see that like they're not going to be able to build a good rapport with students, I'm like good God, you'd want to be organized or you are in for a tough trot here. So, mate, I was very lucky on that front. That organization, like just the amount. Like like people think you can come in at nine, you go three. Like you're a fair dink and like you're arriving there at seven, 30, and like like my we used to have, you know, like I was tag or touch 530 in the arbol and like it'd just be touching go whether I'd make it or not. Honestly, because it was just there's always just something to do, there's something that you need to sort out, it's just, it's constant. And look I. You know, the only two jobs I've ever had has been a teacher and doing whatever the hell you want to call this. So like I don't have any experience in other roles or whatever, but I just think teachers they work so hard and they're not getting paid anywhere near enough. So organization was always a huge thing for me, mate. That was always tough.
Speaker 2:As far as achievements, you know, I sort of I was never like an award winning teacher or anything like that. To be perfectly honest with you, I think a lot of teachers I worked with probably didn't appreciate the way that I thought because I wasn't organized. But they knew that the relationships that I'd built with kids was just second to none and like there'd be situations where, you know, there'd be young blokes. I worked at a school in South Sydney that had a very high indigenous rate of kids and, mate, I loved that they all played footy, they all like it was just unreal and they were, I don't know. It was just. It was just so refreshing to be able to treat these kids differently to what they probably have been treated before and like it just made such a difference.
Speaker 2:And I think because I did things a little bit unorthodox sometimes I think it a rub I teach us up the wrong way and stuff which I get 100%. But I think like just just little things, little differences that I'd make to, you know, kids' lives that have probably gone kind of to year five just in the too hard basket, you know what I mean. Just too hard to deal with and like we've all grown up with that mate. That was just always such a punish as a kid. But when they find the right teacher it can turn around very, very quickly.
Speaker 2:So some of those ones might have had kids that have arrived to my class at a lot like anxiety rhythm that couldn't walk in the door. Kids that I had a boy arrive one year that was a complete mute when he arrived at my class and he'd been from kindergarten to year five and I think halfway through the year I had him talking. That was like a huge, huge thing, you know. So yeah, like there's teachers that I look back on from my school and I think, fuck, like they made a difference to me at that point in my life and I'd like to think that there's a number of kids out there that are that would feel the same about me, you know, yeah yeah, especially if PE was the subject all day with your teaching style, man Well mate.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what. In my last year of teaching, the sports job opened up and I went oh, how good is this? I'm going to go to sports is going to be unreal. And that's great when you've got the year five and you're six kids, but when you're spending, you know, eight hours a day out on a boiling hot field with 35 year olds, very different kettle of fish. So I will work that out very, very quickly. I'd been looking at the PE teacher for years on. That's where I need to be. That'd be unreal. And then I got there and went good God, this is the hardest thing I've ever done.
Speaker 1:It's so funny, barry, because you were talking about organization and I was actually going to ask well, I'm going to ask now what skills did you take as a teacher into podcasting? And I thought organizing, organization or organizing your content and stuff like that would be coming from your teaching background.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, and I think I definitely have improved it and, to be fair, there's a lot less to organize. You know, I have a basic sort of structure for every day how it's going to look, but I also I don't know might sound strange, but I also enjoy being a little bit more unstructured and that's sort of been my whole podcast Like when I got into podcasting, every single podcast that I'd know of was a half an hour show or an hour show once a week. And I just got in I thought, why, why do I have to do it like that? Why, like, why not just have smaller podcasts every single day, touch on that specific topic and why not say what needs to be said in six minutes, instead of dragging it out for 25 minutes and just repeating yourself and just chucking in filler stuff that doesn't need to be said? So it's funny like I've got a podcast agency that I've been with for years and when I saw them with them they were like I was saying to me what do you put out a four minute podcast yesterday, why? And I went I didn't know anything more to say that that was what had to be said. Why would I say any more than that and they, they, they, they razzed me for like a year saying that stupid, it's not going to work.
Speaker 2:And you know now, now that I've got me given advice to other people about different ways to think about podcasting and different ways to do it, and that's probably something I'm I'm pretty proud of in podcasting, that I came in and I didn't try and just do what everyone else did. Yeah, try to put my own sort of spin on it, and it's worked out really well for me. Mate, like, oh, like, people almost fall off their chairs when I say I put out you know, five to six podcasts a day. But I mean that that's my job, you know my job at the end of the day and if there's some to talk about, I'll jump behind the mic, I'll talk about it and, as I just said, if it takes three minutes, so that yeah, no be, just don't beat around the bush.
Speaker 1:Um, I just want to ask, nathan, were you podcasting when you were teaching, or was there a break period and then you got it like you finished teaching, said I'm done with this, what am I going to do now?
Speaker 2:Uh, mate, I had the, I had the social media page when I was teaching I was still doing that, so I hadn't revealed my face or anything yet. And like there'd be times where I were like I'd be in the school yard and I'd hear the year six kids talking about the guru or their super coach team and I sort of sit there and giggle. And there was even times where, like, I was on afternoon duty once and there was too far this next to me and they were talking about their, um, their, their super coach team, and I remember one of them was saying oh, the guru guy said this. The other, blake, said oh, he's a flogged, don't listen to him. And I was standing right there just thinking, oh, this is unreal, this is great.
Speaker 2:So I started off like that but no one knew it was me. Um, no one had any idea at school or anything like that. I pretty much didn't tell anyone. I was my girlfriend. You know about someone. My mates knew about it. That was about it. Um, and then I didn't have the podcast yet and it's a funny story. Um, if you're a, uh, american sports person out there, you'll know. Um, colin Cowherd. Yep, he's one of the commentators over there and I used to really like his podcast, except I didn't know what a podcast was At the end of the 2019. Never heard of it, right. And I remember I said to one of my mates I was talking about some Tom Brady stat or something and he's like, oh, where'd you hear that? And I said I've been watching the these little five minute clips on Facebook. Um, from the herd.
Speaker 2:Yeah, bro. So, like my um, my school was a 15 minute drive from home every day, colin, and put out three five minute clips. Yeah, I just load them up, turn my phone on in the car and drive and just listen to those three things. And my mate said you know, you can listen to the whole thing on his podcast, right? No, and I literally said, man, I said what's a podcast? That would have been in September 2019. Um, didn't buy any of the equipment yet.
Speaker 2:We went on a. We went on a cruise at the end of the year big family cruise and I told the school that I was working out but I wasn't coming back, that I was going to have a go at this thing. And, fuck, I got some laughs, bro, good God, did I get some laughs? So it's a. It's been a sweet now for a mate of people that I wasn't really huge fans of. Uh, but yeah. So we went on this cruise and I still remember they got back into Sydney Harbor and, like, when I set foot on land, I was like, fuck, I gotta start this podcast, I gotta try and turn this into, um, a career now, which was just wild to think about, like, and I'll be honest with you, I wasn't even confident that I could do it at that point, wasn't confident at all. And um, I remember when I first started I interviewed, uh, brett White, old Camber Raider's front row Uh, I think he's at the Gold Coast Titans now as assistant coach champion fell, unreal guy. And I spoke to him and like I was so nervous I listened back to it now and I get about three minutes into it I go I can't listen to this anymore. This is, this is so cringy to hear. But I remember at the time I'm thinking, oh my God, that that interview that went gangbusters. So many people, um, tuned into that. I went back through my stats the other day and I went back to that podcast. That podcast received about 5% of the listens that I get on a podcast now. And I remember going, oh my God, so many people are listening to this thing. It's unbelievable. So, uh, yeah, mate, as far as you you as your um question went, I didn't have the podcast when I was teaching and started doing that after I still didn't reveal my face just yet.
Speaker 2:Um, and then actually, when I did reveal my face, I was sort of a part time teaching at a school, uh, just for like two days a week. That's when I was doing the um, um, the sports teaching, and there was a couple of the older kids sort of started to piece it together and I actually got away with it for about three months. I said that it was my twin brother and some of them actually brought it, so I snuck away for it for a little bit, but then bloke in a bar came along and once I was on there I was like, okay, I probably got to, uh, got to pull back on the teaching now and have a real crack at this. So, yeah, it's it's wild to look back on that. But yeah, september 2019, I didn't know what a podcast was. Uh, january 2020, I made it my career.
Speaker 1:So crazy, yeah that is crazy and that's where I had actually it wasn't actually bloke in a bar where I'd first seen you. I'd seen you on the YKTR podcast with um, ice and um and that's where I started following you. I was like man, I love this guy's content and uh his his take on on the footy.
Speaker 1:And it's really funny. I had actually spoken with one of my cousins earlier today and, um, I was just talking to him and asked him hey man, um, if you had a footy question for someone who works, uh, in footy media, what would you ask him? Cause, man, I was shooting bricks earlier today and he, um, he said, oh, I wouldn't really know. And I said, well, I'm going to sit down with a guru, and he goes no way, it's where you're sitting down with them. I said, yeah, I'm just going to try this podcast thing with him and, uh, have a yarn. And he goes bro, let that guy know that I'm a die hard rugby union fan and when I listened to his content and the way he breaks it down for me, so when I start watching league, I understand it better, um, so that's a little plug for you there, tonguey, um, but yeah, that's what he was telling me. Cause, bro, I love that guy and I love his stuff and he helps me understand the game a bit better with his takes on on the NRL. Uh, from a rugby union fans perspective. Um, but that's when I'd first seen you, bro, I'd seen you on my KTR and I was like who's this guy? Where's this guy come from, um? So I started following your content. But so you had the.
Speaker 1:So, for those that don't know, super coach and NRL fantasy uh, uh, footy games that people can play, where they choose a team made up of current footy players and, based on what these players do whether it's tackles, making um, scoring a try, kicking a field goal they get points rewarded on on their effort out on the field and then you tally all your points up and you face off against another person, uh, in your competition, um and um. That's pretty much the gist of fantasy football. So with your fantasy competition, you had started that first with a bunch of mates. You had started that first with a bunch of mates, and then you went into podcasting from the fantasy. So, fantasy football you started making content. Is that what the podcast started off? As Content for fantasy or super coach fantasy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. Like I started, as I said, as super coach, as you just said, making fantasy content and all that. And then I've been very lucky mate, one of my best mates. I went to high school with him and you know we weren't even that close at high school, we're sort of in the same sort of group but we became really good mates after high school and you'll understand why I'm in it and he was. He was like the starting New South Wales outside center in Union, but then he'd be the start, you know, the opening bowl of New South Wales in cricket. He was. He was in the Australian squad for Javelin, so he was just, he could just do it all, this guy Right. And so we were mates growing up and whatnot, but not overly close. And then we finished school and I sort of had a touch and an Oztag team that I used to organize and run with mates and he played with us occasionally and I never really knew too much about what he was doing in life or whatever. And then about five or six years ago I sort of want to be with him or something one day and he just told me what he was doing and essentially without us even knowing.
Speaker 2:He built this company through social media. That was like a like an interior design sort of page, I guess you'd call it and I remember him showing it to me in the early days and just thinking what the fuck are you doing? Like you're sharing pictures of chairs, sharing pictures, like all this weird stuff that I've never heard you talk about. And, yeah, I won't say too much because he's a very humble guy. But he now, he's now got a million followers on his page, he's got about 45 people working underneath him and he he actually had to ring me last night I've got my wedding coming up in April and he was so upset he said, bro, I can't make it to the wedding. And I know that's something that's a bit shit.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 2:I thought well why? And he goes oh we're actually, I'm expanding the business to America.
Speaker 2:Well, I just Wow, that is unbelievable, that's crazy. And if it wasn't for him, I don't know where I'd be. Because two or three years ago probably four years ago now I was making this super coach content and I've got to about 15,000 followers really quickly, did it in about eight months or so. It just took off all of a sudden and, as I said, there was other people doing it. But I just think I hit a bit of a blank spot as far as social media, the way that my designs were and all that sort of stuff. So I hit 15,000 really easily.
Speaker 2:And he said to me he's like oh, you should, you should start to talk more rugby league. Still do your super coach, but talk more rugby league. And I sort of went oh, I've got to stay in my lane, I've got to keep doing what I'm doing. And thank God I took his advice because he said to me that day he said if you, if you move to rugby league content and you make your audience wider, he goes. You'll be doing this full time in four years time. And unbelievable. I was doing it full time in three years time and at that point, like Ken Pia bloke in a bar, he'd been grinding at what he was doing for three or four, five years at that point and you know, he was only just starting to go full time. And now I know, looking back on it from from being made to Kevin now that he was, he was scraping at that point, scraping to get by. My mate said, yeah, if you change to rugby league, you do this you'll, you'll be full time very soon. And it's just, it's great I've been so lucky to have a mind like his in my corner because, mate, everything he has said would happen has played out just about perfectly.
Speaker 2:It's been unbelievable and, yeah, to be able to see the success that he's had and literally just guide me through everything that I've been doing, like I I rang him a few months ago and I said, hey, twenty twenty three, I want to make a big push for YouTube content. And he went, sort of coming to my office, and I went into his office for about eight hours and he just took me through everything YouTube, all this algorithm, sort of stuff, all this stuff that I just it was just another world to me, you know, and it sounded like really basic stuff. But, like ever since then, like my, my YouTube is is still growing, but for the entire last year I think, I gained two thousand subscribers. In the last three months I've pretty much gained, gained three thousand, and it's been rugby league season as well. So guys that are successful, guys that know what they're doing, and that's where I've been very lucky to have him.
Speaker 2:I've been very lucky to have Kempie as well, who's taught me so much Can can be, teach me. He honestly teaches me something new every day without even trying. Maybe he's trying to teach me, I don't know, but it just feels like he doesn't actually can be. So I've I've actually completely forgotten what the original question was, but I have been. That's all good, right.
Speaker 2:I've been really lucky with the people around me.
Speaker 1:Mate for sure, yeah, that's awesome Having someone like that, and that's what I've I've tried to find so far because, like you, not knowing how to do those things like YouTube and that, like we were talking about earlier off here, video content is really big, especially for podcasts now, compared to just audio, which I'm currently doing, but we'll get into that later. I just wanted to ask well, you mentioned Kempie, ken and Kemp and the host of the successful bloke in the bar podcast. How did that all come about, barry? How did how did you get in contact or how did you guys get in contact, sorry, and how did you end up on the show?
Speaker 2:It's funny, man.
Speaker 2:I, like before I was making my own content, like I, honestly, I never really took any notice of rugby league content. So I had no idea what what Kempie was doing. I had no idea what Anna Rose was doing, no idea who Clarky was. If you would have said those names to me five years ago, I wouldn't have had the slightest clue what you were talking about. It just wasn't.
Speaker 2:Social media, wasn't a rugby league thing for me, it was just friends and family and whatnot, which is so weird to think back on now. So I just entered this world completely blind and you know I used to see Kempie's, you know content pop up here and there and it was funny. Before I ever met him, like I remember one night we had a massive fucking stink on social media. Wow, you and Kempie yeah bro, 100%. Well, and like I get it too, because he's you know, he's a former player who's been grinding away for a few years. And then all of a sudden this dickhead appears, calling himself the guru. And I'm trying to tell Dan and Kemp, a former furthest grader, you know who should be playing this. Anyway, I can't. It was about Sean Johnson, but I can't remember what the context of the argument was. But I just remember sitting there going this block's a fucking floggy, he's full of himself. I can't believe this guy. And he was thinking the same of me and we had very brief moments of contact over the years, very brief, but I would say early on we probably weren't huge fans of each other, realistically. And then, I don't know what happened I ended up with his phone number one night and I wanted to ring him. It's funny, just when I'm talking to you, behind you is a light that I brought about four years ago, a really nice stage light, and Kemp he was the one that sent me the link for it and we'd never met at this point and I said, look, I want to start to do some more video sort of content. I sort of need some stage lights for where I'm doing it. And he sent me this link and we were talking and I remember that took us about five minutes and then, honestly, I reckon we sat on the phone, spoke for about two and a half hours just about life content, what I was doing, what he had planned, and I don't know like we we got along well and everything, and I thought, oh, you know, maybe that'll lead to something in the future. We'll see Then. I reckon I didn't talk to Kemp for three or four months. We were just both busy and you know, doing whatever. And then I think scope from my KTR scope got covered.
Speaker 2:It was two weeks before the 2021 grand final, I think it was. And yeah, isaac Ritchie asked me. He said, do you want to come on? And I was shitting myself. I absolutely shitting myself. I'd never done. The only thing I'd ever done before was essentially talking to my phone. I was podcasting at the time but there was no video content for it or anything. So going into a studio like that, on the bright lights, and you know, you know, sitting next to Isaac and like he'll be the first time to show you, like he was just an average first grader or whatever, but that was the first time I'd ever sat opposite a first grade footballer to talk footy. And yeah it was. You know it was a crazy moment Just how much sort of respect he was giving my takes and my opinions and all that sort of stuff. And it was funny when we came on.
Speaker 2:First episode I did was previewing the Panthers Melbourne Storm prelim final in 2021.
Speaker 2:And that was the game, the huge upset, the Panthers.
Speaker 2:The Panthers gave it to them and it just came from nowhere. I think they were at like five or six bucks and we spent 30 minutes on this show just talking about how good the Melbourne Storm are and how Penritha know hope, and I think that day was the last day I ever doubted this Panthers side. So I got an opportunity with Isaac and like to be honest with you, mate, I've never spoken to Kempie about it or anything like that, but I assume that he probably saw me on there and thought, oh, he can handle himself. Then I got an opportunity to come on at the start of the next year, I think, with Kempie, and then, yeah, eventually that spot opened up and you know, I don't know, it's just all all been hunky dory since. But yeah, like me and Kempie good mates now and whatever, but yeah, like I still remember where I was sitting that night when I was having this fight with this guy going. It's so funny, yeah, it's so weird how it all sort of plays out and how it all ends up.
Speaker 2:But you know, to be fair, I don't reckon Kempie would even remember it. I'm never spoken to him about it, I don't even remember it. But for me I was like this guy kidding himself like he's coming about, what's going on here, sort of thing. But yeah, it's wild. You know just how it's all played out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is wild, bro, and fuck, that's another story. You know it's too good to be true, but I just wanted to touch up. Firstly, the Storm Penrith game. That was the one at Suncor. Hey, that was during COVID season. Yeah, I actually was at that game. My youngest daughter, we had all gone out, all the family, to the footy. And what a game, bro, what a game. I actually thought Nelson was going to win it for Storm during that game when he came on. But bloke and a bar bro, such a massive success.
Speaker 1:That podcast and the following you guys have. It's amazing. And I just wanted to ask and sort of just get it behind the scenes, kind of feel how does it all work? How do you guys come in? Do you guys have meetings about content and what you guys are going to push, especially during the offseason, like that's? That's another thing I wanted to ask the amount of content you've been pushing during this offseason, it's unreal, bro. Like where does, where do you guys get that idea, those ideas from, and how does it all come about, especially during the offseason, for you guys? Just whatever's happening in the media, that's just you guys put your take on it and just say let's push this out and just record and see how we go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's tough during the offseason but, to be honest with you, this offseason has been the hardest because there's not many players getting in trouble. Well, yeah, if we'll touch on that, touch on that Like credits to the players, it's been a great offseason on that front. But like, there's some days where we come in on a Monday and we've got, you know, 10 topics to talk about and I'm like Jesus in a normal season I don't know how much we talk about these things, but because you know, and credits to the players, like I mean we've all been saying it for a long, a long time they need to get smarter, they need to get wiser. They certainly have. And yeah, it's been a little bit counterproductive for me, to be honest with you, because normally you've got this guy's suspended, this guy's in trouble, who's going to replace him? Who's going to do that? Ba ba, ba ba. But they've been pretty good this season.
Speaker 2:But yeah, man, I mean, like during the regular season it's and I think that's been the big difference between you know what me and Ken be, and now now Tim's obviously joined us as well, but I mean, like I sat there and when can be needed? Co-host. You know, I knew I'd been on there before but I was like, oh you know what He'll? He can reach out to any former player, any former player whatsoever, and they'll jump at that. So I didn't really expect it. And so, when, when can be did reach out? I think. I honestly think the difference has been that he knows that I'll sit there and I'll watch eight games. I'll watch all eight of them and whatever I think is the most important game to talk about, I'll watch that twice, which it all sounds easy and everything. But you know when, when, when you've got to fit in eight games before Monday nine am.
Speaker 2:That's harder than what it seems. It's a lot harder than what it seems Like you've just got to think. For 25 weeks you've got to block out the hours of three pm to 10 pm every single Saturday, without a doubt, there's no question. Every single Sunday you've got to block out at 2 pm, just six pm. Your Friday nights are gone and everything. So you know, especially with my girlfriend, and so I've been very lucky that she's been unbelievable. But you know, the the afternoons were out on a Sunday with family or whatever. And I've got to say, oh, I've got to go watch the Tigers and the Titans, like, are you for real? But that's and it's. And it's a lot easier now that it's my full time job.
Speaker 2:But when I was doing it part time and I was saying that people just looking at me, going, what are you talking about? You don't have to go much, they came, you'll be fine without it. But I had that dedication for a long time and I've still got it. Now there's a, there's a trial this weekend. I think the dolphins are playing Ipswich or someone and it's going to be on a stream on the Queensland rugby league.
Speaker 2:So you know, my girlfriend said, oh, we go out and sit and I went. I actually got to watch a trial. I can't, I've got to watch it or I won't get to watch it. We just crazy. But it's, I think it's, and I think it's something that, like, I'm sure we've all sat there, like I used to sit down and watch the footy show when I was a kid and I used to listen to the boys and they were hilarious, they were great. But when they talk footy, you sit down and you go these like to have them watch all these games. They've watched all these games and I find it unbelievable how many people think that they can come into podcasting or into YouTubeing of any sport and not watch every single minute of it and expect to give an expert opinion.
Speaker 2:It just blows my mind. So it's a big thing for me, kempion Tim, that we are. We do not miss a game and if something happens, like if I've got a wedding on a Saturday night, I'll have my alarm set for 8am the next morning to get up and watch those three games from the night before. Not the highlights, not the chaos, the whole three games. Because as good as those KMNs are and everything you know, you'd know as well you can't get a vibe for a game of footy off Twenty minutes. You need to follow the ebbs and the flows of the game and everything to be able to talk about it. So, as much as I love it, it takes up a lot of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it must do very well. Actually it does, and that's that dedication, bro. That's you grinding and you know you're. You're eating the fruits of your labor. I did want to ask though, talking about dedication, For those that are looking into podcasting is there any advance you'd like to give them?
Speaker 2:Oh, podcasting is hard, like it's especially harder now, like it's such a it's such a saturated market, now it is. It is very, very hard to come into podcasting now. I mean it's it's easier in podcasting to come in if you're someone, if you're a former footballer or you're a former, you know, whatever it might be. But I like I came in with none of that, absolutely none of it. And that's where you've just got to grind your ass off. You've got to be putting out content constantly. Like I see, I see podcasts out there that you know they put up a post where they're out 200th podcast and I just sit there and I'm like, fuck, doing 200 a month. You know, like I literally am doing 200 a month and I just think sometimes that and you know the the, the application of putting out one, one podcast a week, this scenario, so it's been, it's been proven to work over time.
Speaker 2:It's a long grind. You look at the Hullo Sport Boys. They started, I don't know. I realized like Tom and Eddie started six and seven years ago doing what they're doing, talking to 30 people for so long. Ken, he was exactly the same, I was exactly the same, and it's just that consistency to kick Cause.
Speaker 2:It's funny when you start a weird thing podcast, like you go and watch my stats. When I started Kenpey's stats, they all just they're so low, so low, and then all of a sudden they just go bang and the momentum you pick up off the back of it is is just crazy. But you've just got to, you've got to hang in there until you get that moment and it can be challenging. It can be so disheartening when you, when you record a podcast, you talk to someone for 40, 50 minutes, you edit it for an hour or two and then you put it out and 10 people listen to it like, yeah, it's just, it's so disheartening. But you've just you've got to push through that period.
Speaker 2:And, as I said, my point of difference was that I would have really short chat. Yeah, yeah, that'd be really quick. And, mate, I've had wives that have messaged me and said you've saved my marriage because we are constantly fighting over little chores like doing the washing up, taking the garbage out, and now for my husband, when he needs to do the washing up, I put on a guru podcast that goes for five minutes and go see if you can get it done before this finishes. It's just like you don't, even, you don't even consider how it impacts people's lives. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I know what you mean, man, because hey, I'm in that boat as well, like I'll do my chores, whether it's out in the yard, and I'll throw in on a podcast, whether it's. You know, it's a bit of music and it's a bit of podcast. So, yeah, that's that's awesome advice, bro. Just grinding and it's funny you brought up the hello sport boys because, man, I swear I subscribed to their channel and get all their notifications as well, and I think I saw like 450th podcast episode. So you want to talk about grinding those? Those boys really know what a grind is. Now, what's your podcast and what you guys are doing? Nathan, I just wanted to ask, bro, what's what?
Speaker 1:what are the? What are the plans for rugby league guru? Rugby league guru where do you see yourself in, say, five years from now? Is it podcasting, or you want to move outside of that, Like you're wearing merch? That's another avenue that comes along with what you see a lot with podcasting. Now, what's, what's the future holding for for rugby league guru? Or the end game even?
Speaker 2:To be honest with you, mate, it's quite a it's quite a daunting question, because where I am now is probably never where I thought I'd be and it's all just taken off so quickly. It's wild to even try and consider what's to happen over the next few years. Like, obviously, kempis brought me on um bloke in a bar and now that I'm part of that team, like it pretty much already is like the biggest sporting podcast in the country. But like I just think, with Kempis mind and allowing me to be part of that, I just think that show, I think that's the best thing. I just think that show. I hope that one day and it's crazy to think this, it's a real pinch myself on the moment, but like I grew up with the footage, yeah, that was my thing growing up.
Speaker 2:I'm sure it was your thing growing up as well, you grew up with the footage because TV was our main, main, main thing then. Yeah, you weren't listening to podcasts, you weren't like that was it? Youtube wasn't around, none of that. So you would, that would be your thing. And it's crazy to think now that you know I've got kids that I coach in football who listen to bloke and a bar every single episode, every single week. And it's wild to think that, like, I'll sort of be that guy that they're listening to, yeah, that they're watching every, every single week, and like, like it's wild.
Speaker 2:I was in and it's the first time it's ever happened to me. I was walking around in the city about six weeks ago and I literally ran into someone wearing, just randomly, a guru t-shirt. And, bro, it's one of the best feelings of my life and I'm not moving. Big merch, everyone thinks of podcasts. You sell thousands of shirts. If you sell 60, you've done incredibly well. It's so much harder than what it seems and that's another thing that Denon's done that I think people under appreciate how well he does his merchandise, cause at the end of the day, it's a t-shirt that says bloke. Yeah, it reinvented the wheel in any way, shape or form, but it's what bloke stands for, and it's what bloke has meant to people for years on, years on, years on years. So for for me to be walking around the streets of the city and see a guy wearing a guru hat and he's seeing me coming and us just sort of go, well, how was this sort of thing? That was like an unbelievable moment for me. That probably doesn't seem like much to people, but to see your brand just in the public when it's not someone you know, it's not a friend, it's not a family member or anything, that was unreal. So, like merchandise will always be a part of it.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I'm ever going to have a big enough, a big enough market to survive off merchandise. Realistically, I honestly just get a thrill out of knowing that people are willing to spend money to wear guru stuff. I think that's unreal. I think podcasting will always be part of my life. I'd like to think so and I just like to think that, you know, if I'm able to stay with bloke for as long as I can, because there, there, there will come a point where there'll be a younger guy of me. I think that's a good thing. There, there will come a point where there'll be a younger guy of me that is doing something over the next few years that all of any you know. Every show has to change and adapt over years and I'll have to do the same thing with with rugby league guru as well Bring on other people and bring on fresh talent and everything. So I think that's going to be the next 10 years or so when I'm able and I'm going to sort of do what can be done. And you know, he had a look around and he chose me and brought me on board and I'm looking forward to that challenge over the next few years having to bring other people on board. I'd like to think of the next year or two. I'd have my own space, my own studio, instead of the spare room in our, in our unit, which has been great, but I'd like to think about my own space. So, yeah, man, I just think that the platform has been laid by Kempe, that you can do that, kempe, your YKGRs, these sort of guys, that. And I just think that with every year, podcasts get more popular and I really do think we're scratching the surface with podcasts.
Speaker 2:The amount of people I still talk to. I've got no idea what they are. It is unbelievable YouTube as well. Like you, look at that. This next generation coming through. Like, none of my mates have YouTube accounts none of them, because we didn't grow up on it but this next generation, they all have YouTube accounts. It's crazy, like I've. I coached under 16 team two years ago and I've told this story a few times. I had them all sitting there and I said, oh, who has TikTok? 30 hands went up. Who has Instagram? 15 hands went up. I said, who has Facebook? Not a single hand went up. And Facebook. Like, I still talk to my mates over Facebook Messenger. That's our number one spot to talk, but that's going to become obsolete very, very soon.
Speaker 1:It's so funny you say that? Because, yeah, I feel the same way. I've, like grown up with Facebook as my go-to social media, but it's Instagram and TikTok that's taking over everything. Twitter not so much. You know, I guess Twitter is not something that's really that big on the side of the world, but, yeah, facebook, man, that's my go-to as well. Everything, yeah, my sharing content. Now, nathan, I just wanted to ask you mentioned Denon Kemp and we've been talking about blocking the bar. I just wanted to ask what's the biggest impact Denon's had on you since you joined Blokenevao and had to, you know, had a chance to learn from him in this podcasting space. What's the biggest impact he's had on your podcast or on your life in general?
Speaker 2:Kemp is a really interesting guy because you see the guy on camera who you know, he talks so much and he's so animated and everything. And when you get to know Kemp he is a little bit different to that character that you see and he's very good at like. He's one of those guys that if something needs to be said in three words, he'll say it in three. He won't say it in ten, and then he'll never like there's been moments where, like I think, oh, he's going to pull me up and tell me to change something about what I said or whatever. And he never really does that. But he's always teaching me things in little subtle ways and, as I said to you off the top, I don't know if he's doing it on purpose or not, but I'm always just picking up little things. And, to be perfectly honest, the best thing Kemp has done for me is give me the confidence to do what I do. Because, as I said before Kemp, when he was looking for a co-host, he could have reached out to any of the thousand former first graders like Channel 9 or Fox would have done and got one of them, and he rang me instead. So that has filled me with so much confidence and you know, he's never. I think I think when I first came on he said it to me, but he's never really said it to me since he just sort of said I respect your opinion, you know what you're talking about. Just believe in what you think, because you know what you're doing. Yeah, and that's been huge, that's been like especially for me and like, as I told you, like I, you know, I made my page where I'm really good because I'm in the fantasy sports, and I just copied that and then it just rolled, the momentum get rolling and I think people, you know I come into you know conversation with everyone and I think I'll bloat call himself a guru.
Speaker 2:He's a fucking ego maniac and it's just, it's so far from the truth, it's not even funny. It's just that I came up with his name at the start and then it started to roll, yeah, and then I mean it's, it's an effective business now. So it's not like I can go back and change it and look, I wouldn't change it, to be honest with you, but I'm not. Like, as I said, I can't remember if it was on camera, off camera. But you said to me oh, do I call you guru, or or or Nathan, like, whenever my mate, like my mates, know if they want to jam me up, they call me guru, public just, and that they, they know that that shits me the tears, which is what what mates are meant to do. But it is interesting, I guess, and I get it, why how people look at me and go. It's got to cause himself. The guru is so full of himself he thinks he knows it all, which it just isn't the reality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, that's, yeah, it's, it's. It's a weird concept, like you know, once you, you make it and and people who know your brand, they think that's how you are, think like that, that's awesome, that you can, you know that you're a totally separate person from what what you portray through the podcast on YouTube there. Now, nathan, let's step aside from the podcasting and stuff of that nature, which is awesome and thank you for sharing. But, like you said, your mates G you up when they call you guru. So I just wanted to ask a few things footy related now, just to test the guru or just to test out the almanac here. But, bro, what's well, his question? What dream matchup would you like to see? Any any year, any team from, from any any era? What's, what's a dream footy matchup you would like to see?
Speaker 2:For me, I always narrow it down to a few sides. I think obviously you know that early nineties Brisbane Broncos team I just loved. I love that team and you know it's weird Like when I think about my top three, most entertaining or all the sides that I enjoyed to watch the most. It would have been the nineties Broncos and probably the nineties Raiders, and I think that's a pretty common answer that you know it's terrible that we never got to see them play in a grand final. The other team that I made that I think is incredibly slept on and you know this, this current panthe side they're starting to head into really, you know, rare territory with with what they're doing. To be honest with you, I'm so glad that I'm alive and at the age I am to watch this panthe side because I think it's incredible what they're doing.
Speaker 2:But the 2017 Melbourne storm that's one of my favorite teams ever and I think it's one of the greatest teams ever and I think it's sort of um, it's slept on a little bit because you remember they played the Cowboys in the grand final. Yeah, the Cowboys were without thirst and they'd gone on that incredible rum where they just hung in every single game and then they came against his Melbourne style and they were just blown off the park. In that game they never sort of chance. But you go back and you have a look at that Melbourne storm side like that's Cooper Cronk, that's Cameron Smith, that's Billy Slater, that's Josh Adokar, that's Cameron Munster, that's you know, the Bromwich boy. It was such a stacked team, the 2017 Melbourne storm side. So they're a team that I would honestly put them up against any team ever and they'd be really hard not to back in. So, as far as dream matchups I take, I put the Broncos and the Raiders from the 90s up against each other. So who came out of that? And then you can play the 2017 storm.
Speaker 1:What's a team that you feel had a chance to be a dynasty or I've always said dynasty, I know a lot of Aussie say dynasty but what's a team that you feel had the potential to be great but never reached that potential?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting one, mate. I always go back to the early 2000s roosters and you know what people might say that's unfair because they want to know too. But, mate, you have a look like I honestly think they went out to 0304, they lost to 0304, they lost to 0404. I would confidently back the 0304 team to beat the 020. Like those teams were stacked. They lost to Penrithat today. Then they lost to the Canary Bulldogs the year after. And you know, obviously 2002 is one of those years that people look back at it A bit of an asterisk. The roosters, they bet the Warriors but of course the Bulldogs. You know they were the best team in the combat year. They had all their points stripped. But then you've also got to remember, with that roosters team 2000, they lost the Grand Final as well.
Speaker 2:2001, I think Joey beat them in the prelim or something, or maybe it was the semi-final. 2001 was a bit of a low year for them. But like at the end of that over one season they let Graham Murray go, they brought in Ricky Stewart. He changed everything about that footy side. They went to three Grand Finals in a row, the four Grand Finals in five years and only having one premiership to show they're the standout team to me as a side, that they should have won a comp somewhere in there. Sorry, they, to be honest with you, mate they. I honestly think they should have won three comps in a row there. I really do. I can't believe they lost you know three. And I can't believe they lost you know four, and obviously on Bison this time. But it was Brad Fittler's last game. Yeah, I remember being out there and I'm sure you'll remember the trial. Brad Fittler gets the ball and he does like this left foot screw kick, kicks it back over the plate of the ball and it hits Chrissy Walker on the full when he scores and I remember being there going. That is one of the best kicks you'll ever see in rugby league. That was unbelievable and I just remember thinking they won't lose this game and I think they went into half time up by seven and then Brent Sherwin and Matt Utile and Hasmur Mazary just put on a master class in the back end.
Speaker 2:It's crazy to look back on that game. I remember, with about 10 minutes to go, canterbury made a substitution and Jonathan Thurston came on and he came on the field in that game and if you go back and watch it. It's with about 10 minutes to go. He gets the ball on about. He's probably on about halfway and he's coming down a narrow short side. I never think it was inside the tram line and he kicked it straight down that corridor and it found touch about two metres out and I remember looking at my old man going, oh my God, what a kick that was. That was unbelievable. And then, obviously in the next 15 years he absolutely dominates. He won it like a year later he had a Daly in middle. He was playing in a grand final, yeah, but those games are unbelievable.
Speaker 2:So yes, an answer to your question. I would go to the Roosters from the early 2000s. I also think around that 08, 09, 10, 11, that West Fager side when Benjy was at his absolute best. I think they lost a couple of prelims in a row. South Sydney's probably been the side over the last few years. They've lost more prelims, finals and grand finals than it's crazy how many they have lost. So yeah, they probably be in my picks for that one.
Speaker 1:There might be a podcast in that, just quietly, I think there could be and it's funny, you brought up the Roosters 0-3, penrith we weren't meant to win that game and then 0-4, the Doggies. Now I feel that that Doggies team that's a team. They had the chance to be great and make a run for a few premierships. They had such a gun forward pack and their back line wasn't the worst, it wasn't the best, it wasn't the worst, but that forward pack, that was amazing, that forward pack.
Speaker 2:We were talking on bloke the other day that they had their points stripped off them in 0-2. They lost the prelim to the Roosters in 0-3, which in my opinion is why the Roosters lost the 0-3 Grand Final, because that Doggies game took so much out of them. They won only in 0-5. From memory they completely shitted the bed and they missed the finals. That year I think they finished ninth, but then 0-6,. People forget like Brisbane went on to win that Grand Final but in the prelim final the Bulldogs had them. They were up by like 12 or 14 and a half time and Willie Mason famously said we're going to another Grand Final and Wayne Bennett just went. Did you hear that? If that would have played out a little bit differently, it's crazy how much success that Canterbury and those Roosters teams could have had in that early period.
Speaker 1:Bro, I just wanted to go down to the grassroots level. What are your thoughts on the current state of grassroots rugby league? Is it in the healthy position at the moment? Because I feel, even based up here in Brisbane it's going okay, but outside of places like Penrith you hear about the numbers the kids that are registered to play for you have been dwindling over the years. I'm not sure if that's true, but what are your thoughts on grassroots rugby league and is it in a healthy position at the moment?
Speaker 2:It's hard for me to comment because I'm pretty heavily involved with like I've coached in the grassroots around my area in South Sydney and I've been really concerned about it around here for a long time. I coached the under 17s last year and we had to combine the South Sydney Comp with the Cronulla Comp, with the North Sydney Comp. You've got to remember that South Sydney Comp is already combined with the East Comp, so you're essentially and we also had to combine with the West Tigers Comp. So just to make one competition in the under 16s we had to combine five different districts.
Speaker 2:So, it's unbelievable and it was still a 10 team comp. It wasn't huge because there's just so few 16 year old kids that are playing rugby league and it's hard because it's hard to get the kid that just loves the game to come and play there probably doesn't have a future in it because the reality is that so many of these teams they've got kids that are playing Harold Matts and SG Ball and they're forced to go back and play club for you. So the smaller kids that aren't going to have a career in it, they're just getting dominated. And I always say, and I think sometimes in our realm we take the piece out of the AFL and we do all that. But as a teacher I'll never forget.
Speaker 2:I always use this story. We had the Swans come to our school one day Unbelievable. Every kid got a hat, every kid got a football. It was interactive. It was like they had obviously sat down and planned out how do we try and get these kids attention and they nailed it. And NREL team I won't say which one and NREL team came a few weeks later and they showed up with a PowerPoint and every kid got a bag which had a rubber and a tube of toothpaste in it.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:I just sat there and went what are we doing? Like we've had the wood over the AFL for a long time. I think that sometimes we relax a little bit too much on that. I think we'll always have it. We take it for granted. I don't know what it's like up your way, mate, but you know you drive around sitting. Now there's more AFL posts around than ever, there's more soccer posts around than ever. I remember as a kid, like when I was really young, we used to drive up to like Lismore sort of north New South Wales sort of area at the end of every year for a holiday up that way to a beach nearby, and I remember like dad used to always take me through. We used to always go through the country, towns and whatnot. He'd say, oh, that's this oval, that's this oval, and I have no recollection of ever seeing an AFL post or a soccer field the whole way up that coastline.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Do it now and there, everywhere. Wow that everywhere you drive down to like Endeavour Sports, there's AFL posts there. Now Sometimes I really worry that we're sleeping on where we're just relying on what's worked in the past. And I think that, and you know, and I've spoken to junior development coaches, you know, within the South Sydney company, they go eh, it's what happens. Kids take school more seriously, they do this, and I'm like you've got two South Sydney teams in the under 16s. How on earth, out of the entire South Sydney region of 16 year olds, is there 35 kids that want to play rugby league? How is that not a problem?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a massive problem and it's crazy because I think viewership, tv viewership for the NRL they had actually beaten the AFL last year. I think it was yeah. But yeah, I thought I'd ask and just see what you thought to it, because I think rugby union is a great lesson for rugby league to learn from, especially at grassroots.
Speaker 2:Rugby union is the best lesson we could possibly have, and all we do is take the piss out of it and ignore it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so interesting times for grassroots level rugby league. Anyways, hopefully they do something about it. Now I wanted to also ask, nathan, your thoughts on the, the player base, so a lot of the players in the NRL. Well, at the moment you sort of see it's like 50-50. There's Polynesians and Maldi and then there's the rest. Do you think you'll ever become a reality where it could be 90% Polynesians in the NRL?
Speaker 2:I think, without a doubt. I think definitely, mate. I think that I don't have the numbers in front of me and I don't know if you've researched more or not, but to be honest with you, mate, I'd be a little bit surprised if it was still 50-50. Like, and all you have to do is go to a junior football game and you can see that it is changing 100%. And I definitely think that it's going to be a pathway that we're going to see in the NRL very, very soon. And you know, like, if you go back and you have a look at like like in a bar this week we went through the 2006 Broncos you go back to that side from memory, like there wasn't a single Polynesian player in that team. I don't think A couple of Indigenous boys, but I don't think there was any Polynesian players in that side. And now you get to you know the teams nowadays, like if you don't have any Polynesian players, you're not going to be successful.
Speaker 2:There's certain things that Polynesian boys can do that Aussie boys can't, and I think, with a lot of teams, you've got to find, you've got to find a real mix of cultures in your side, and I think it's one thing that we sleep on. That the Melbourne Storm always do really well. They've always got, you know, a couple of Aussie boys and they've got a few Indigenous boys and there's Polynesian boys coming through. There's a heap of Kiwis that are always there. I think the Melbourne Storm are really good at finding that balance.
Speaker 2:The Penrith Panthers are the same mate. Have a look at the Panthers side, like so many different cultures in there, and I think it is. It's so important, it's so crucial to your side to be able to get a real mix of cultures that all bring a different skill set. But yeah, mate, I do think, and I especially think you know it's been the thing for years where you know you'd get your Tonga, your Samoas, these sorts of sides that arrive at a World Cup, and you'd go look at this side, they're so good, but they don't have a seven, they don't have a six, they don't have a nine.
Speaker 2:And that was the argument. Every single year you see that change now.
Speaker 2:You see, that change 100% and I reckon the kid that's going to really turn it is this Isaiah Katoa up at the Dolphins Island. I'm very, very high on him and I also think you know a guy like Jerome Law. I like has he got his? You know Magoo moments in him A hundred percent he does. But people that want to act like he is in a supremely talented football are absolutely kidding themselves Like I. Just I don't think that you would have seen guys like Jerome Law, isaiah Katoa, 10 or 15 years ago.
Speaker 1:I just don't think you would have seen it yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting thing which I thought I would ask. Now, Nathan, I just want to jump on something that's always it seems like every weekend we're always talking about this, and this is the bunker. What are your thoughts on the bunker? Are there things that you feel that they should be or shouldn't be able to rule on, Like, such as a forward pass? They don't rule on that, but I think they should rule on it. What are your thoughts on the bunker, Mate?
Speaker 2:I've always taken a very heavy stance on this and I don't think people like my opinion on it. But that's fine. Everyone wants technology until they get it, and then the game slows down. Then you stop the momentum. Why are we looking at it in slow motion? Looking at it in slow motion? Because you all asked for it. This is what you've all been begging for for 10 years and now you've got it. It's too much. I think people forget that our game existed for 100 years before we brought technology in and it was unreal. Find me someone who doesn't like the footy in the 80s and the 90s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not going to happen.
Speaker 2:No way the game flowed. It moved quickly. I find it absolutely bizarre that every single Monday, the NRO does a press conference going through the mistakes that the referees made. I just think it's mistakes are going to happen. It's part of the game. I mean, is there going to come a point where you're going to see NRL teams have a press conference every Monday going through the two knock-ons that this player had, because that player is getting paid five times as much as that referee? He's not expected to be perfect, but the referee is.
Speaker 2:I just I think it is so bizarre and I've said it for a long time, man, I think in rugby league we've got a massive finger-pointing culture. I think that you know, if a referee makes a decision that we don't agree with in the last five minutes, we're going to ignore the 14 mistakes that we've made, and that's the one. That's what costs us. That's why we didn't win this game of football 35 missed tackles, 19 errors. No, the referee lost it for us. I think it is.
Speaker 2:I find it so embarrassing sometimes, and even the way that you know we see players and having the way that they talk to referees as well. That's the one thing, mate, I go now. I'm obviously a huge league guys. I'm not a huge union fan but, mate, the respect that union players have for referees, I wish we had it, because sometimes it is so embarrassing the way that we treat referees. It is absolutely disgraceful in my opinion and you know I'm obviously involved with junior grades and whatnot and for people to say it doesn't filter down, they're kidding themselves, absolutely kidding themselves. My boys know that when they coach, if they come off the field and they complain about their F, they wouldn't play next week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's always been my experience with rugby league as well. I come from a small town back in Wellington, new Zealand, waniomata, and they had a really young footy team in the 80s and 90s, but they had a tradition of giving it to the ref in the opposition and then on the other side of the neighborhood the boys are playing rugby union and they're calling the ref, sir, and stuff like that. You know, you see it in union over here. You see it in union even in the pros, whereas in rugby league you always see our players mouthing off at the ref and I think that's something that they've been trying to fix or work on and it's fair game. If they're going to do that, I'm all for the ref sending them off the field for, you know, 10 minutes or whatever it may be.
Speaker 1:Now, just for just to wrap it up and we'll talk about this earlier with social media, what's your thoughts on mental health? Well, firstly, we'll touch on the footy players, mental health and social media. You think it's a double-edged sword for the light you're talking. There really hasn't been that much content with the boys getting in trouble, which is a good thing. What are your thoughts on mental health for these footy players and social media. Is it a double-edged sword for?
Speaker 2:these players? Yeah for sure, mate. I think social media in general is a double-edged sword. I remember I said something once to me, and I think you said it on podcast that social media is like a hammer. I think you said you can break the shit out of someone with a hammer or you can build a house with it. So there's positives and negatives depending on how you want to use it.
Speaker 2:I've managed to use my social media, in my opinion, as a positive. But even yesterday, like I and it was the first time it's happened very weird timing I got about 60 dm's from people because someone had made a fake account of rugby league guru. So it was rugby league guru, with a hashtag or something at the end of it, and whoever was doing this page was sending people messages saying they'd won a prize, with a link to click and put in your details and transfer that. You know all that sort of just. You know, and it was just and I just said to everyone that mess with me, hey, can you just report it? And I went yeah, yeah, switch, switch, switch. Anyway, I got a notification today saying that it can't, it's not a reportable offense, and I thought how on earth can it not be a reportable offense. And I clicked on the link to the page and they just changed it. They changed it completely to some other. It was selling like organic towels and I was like what's happened here? And then I typed in the name of that brand and you know that was another page with 60 or 70,000. So there's obviously someone out there who's just going day by day, changing the name to be something else and then targeting certain people to try and get a bit of money out of that and try and cash me out and like it's a classic example of you can use social media in such a negative way.
Speaker 2:And I think that and I think this has been something really positive in rugby league. And I think that you know people like myself, denon Isaac, all these people that are doing you know your sort of off media or you know different, however the hell you want to describe it. I think that we've done really well. Stamping out people. Messaging players when they're multi is loose, that sort of stuff, like I just think it's become more of a cultural thing now to just say to your mate you're being a dick kid, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:And you know it made it so disheartening when and you know, like you see occasionally a literal Mitchell, he's fantastic at it the trial Mitchell will post occasionally that someone sent him something incredibly racist. That is just unbelievable. That someone would type not only think it will then type it and then send it is crazy. But you know, like I've I won't say her, but I've sat, you know, in the studio with another indigenous player who has showed me their DMs, and there's so many of them. I can't imagine what the trial Mitchell would look like for the one that he puts up, or can there be another hundred out there that he gets. It's just I can't even fathom it.
Speaker 2:But then and you know, god rest his soul, you know, paul Green passes away and everyone's, everyone's pro mental health, everything on top of it. For a week we're all in, we love it, and then a week later, you know, so many people are just back out there using people online, like I mean, I've always said it and that you know. Without coming back to the referees thing, like I know for a fact a lot of referees out there that really struggle with mental health and like I really hope we don't have a situation like that one day. But with the amount of pressure these guys are under and how much shit they're copying constantly. You think about being a ref. You can have 100 games where you don't make a mistake and that hundred and first game where you do. You know real Sackier.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:People follow you in the street, Like I. When I was teaching, I taught the daughter of an NRL referee and like people used to come up to them on the street and abuse him in front of her. She was six years old.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And it's just like it's that sort of things, that just it. Sometimes it really, really worries me. At the same time, there's so many NRL players out there that if they get on the front foot and they use their social media in a positive way, they can have such a positive impact and I think players are more and more starting to realize that. You know, obviously over the last year or so formed a pretty good relationship with Jackson Hastings and the amount of stuff that he's copped and some of the DMs that he's shown me on his phone. It is some of the things that people say to guys. They don't know the first thing about that, they're just going off articles or stories that have hurt or anything is unbelievable.
Speaker 2:And I think Jacko is a guy that you know.
Speaker 2:A few years ago, when no one wanted him in the NRL and he had to go to um Southford, you know he got on the plane to know where Southford was, had no idea, but he had no choices anymore and this was three years before that he was the best young player in the country, yeah, and he just you know he, like the mental health demons that he had to deal with over there, completely rebuild himself as a person and come back over here and then people still judging him like he's a complete and utter you know, just just treating him like he is still a teenager, that you know. And Jackson will be the first one to say and this is what I think Jackson did really well he got on the front foot and said Yep, I was a dickhead, I did this wrong, I did this wrong, I did this wrong. I've learned from it, I've grown from it and, thankfully, despite the you know the circus that is the West Tigers, I think people have been able to see the real Jackson Hastings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think he's made it and I'm like that's probably one of the things I'm proudest of is my little role that I've played in showing what Jackson's really like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, cause when he was on the bloke in the bar podcast man you seemed like a really neat guy and man yeah.
Speaker 2:I got like him, which I think Jackson can start to change things too. Like he. We were doing a podcast with him at the start of the year and I'd mention go hey, bro, I don't know if you're free today, but we're going through our favorite Jersey balltime and he got yeah, gun, I want to be there, can you wait an hour so I can come? Like he is, he's a footy nerd and I think for a very long time footballers have been scared to show that side of them because their mates would give him shit. You take it too seriously, you care too much. Jackson is just more than happy to show that he cares too much about rugby league, which I think is a trait that is just so underappreciated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, man. I agree On a final note, nathan can. I ask bro with your mental health and social media how do you deal with that man when you start getting trolls in your DMs? What coping mechanisms do you use to make sure that you're not affected by that shit?
Speaker 2:I'm better at it now than what I used to be. I used to be bad, but I used to clap back at everyone. I used to think, okay, I've got to win this individual battle with this person. You know, and occasionally I had one today, to be honest, I didn't have a great day today. I had a few things go wrong and I clapped back at someone and I could tell by their comments. They had no idea what they were talking about, no idea whatsoever.
Speaker 2:But because I wasn't in a great mood for a few hours, I snapped back at someone and I just trying to win that little alpha moment. And then you sit back there 10 seconds later and you go. What was the point?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then name on Instagram is JXZ234. What did I achieve then? You know what I mean. I used to be really bad. I looked back at some of the little things I got into and just cringe at how I carried on and sort of thing. I went into my mates like I've had a few mates that said, oh, I'm going to try and do a social media thing. And I go, yeah, yeah, sweet, but just be prepared, no matter what you do, you're going to crap for it. People are going to come after you. They're going to get stuck into you.
Speaker 2:I had a post the other day and I knew when I uploaded. As soon as I uploaded I saw that I got one. It was a 250 word post and I got one letter wrong. Instead of field I wrote FIEKD K is directly next to L, and I saw it and thought, here we go. Everything I wrote in this post isn't going to matter because all people are going to say it's okay anyway. So I made sure I was the first comment. As soon as I went up I went. I wrote FIELDHAR what a dickhead can't even spell.
Speaker 2:By the time I submitted that there were six other comments pointing out that there was one letter wrong in that post, and that is social media down to a T, and it used to be back in the day there'd be 20 of those comments, there'd be a heap of them. Now you get five or six, but then people will comment underneath that going, yeah, good on you, mate. You know what I mean. And I think that's where part of that culture is changing. And now I get comments every day that are disagreeing with what I say or giving me shit or making a personal attack on me and whatever. And you've just got to sit there and go fuck.
Speaker 2:If I was sitting there writing comments like that to someone I've never met before, who's literally doing their job, what sort of a headspace am I in? Yeah, that's true, you know. And you just got to think, fuck, if that person needs to have that shot at me today to obviously for them to get something out of it, they probably need it, yeah. And then at the end of the day which is sad and it's dreadful to think about me, but I just and obviously it's different because I'm in the content space but, like I just I can't imagine any of my mates sitting there on their phone abusing someone that all they're doing is putting out content for if you don't want to watch it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so true, man, and when you imagine a field of still clapping back in the amount of hours you ought to be wasting doing all that, that's what I was doing.
Speaker 2:I was clapping back at everything, and you know it's so funny how. You know, Ken P very rarely does it, I very rarely do it now, but we were willing to clap back at each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is wild to think about, like just crazy, but like some of the things that we and it's hard because, like it happens every single Monday on the podcast, every single time Someone will like comment on something and they'll just, they'll just assume a narrative which isn't what we've said. Yeah, and for example, we'll you know, the Brisbane Broncos. There's been a lot to talk about with the Brisbane Broncos over the last two years. They've got a spoon, players have left, adam Reynolds arrived, kevin Malt Like there's been so much to talk about. So every week we will talk for the Broncos like not every week, but quite often we will talk about the Broncos a little bit longer than probably our other teams, and the first comment to be oh, it can be talking about the Broncos and how it's all okay once again, when the reality is, the entire episode is the complete opposite to that.
Speaker 2:It can be raw and honest about how disappointed he is with what's happening with the Broncos. But if you're not going to sit there and watch the whole four hours and you read that comment, most people will just believe that yeah. And then you start to build a narrative through comments and everything and that sort of stuff becomes frustrating when you put so much work into your content and then a couple of comments are just sitting there and it gives people the wrong idea of what's actually happening, like the amount of people that are. It's crazy the amount of times I'll put out a piece of content and I'll get a message going I hate you. You sit on the fence. You never make a decision. I'm like I'll open the next day and we'll go.
Speaker 2:You're too negative, why don't you ever say anything positive? And it's like hold on, I'm sitting on the fence, or am I being too negative? What's the? And then there'll be messages You're too positive, you're just pro player. And it's like like oh, I can honestly get those three messages within two hours. Wow, you just can't win.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just going to say that you can't win. I guess the biggest take is to just ignore the noise. I'm a hundred percent and it's you know you've just got to ignore it.
Speaker 2:You just got to get on with what you're doing and at the same time, I make it sound like it's all doom and gloom. I will receive so many messages that are people saying how much they appreciate, how much they love, but at the end of the day, you're a human being and that stuff's nice. But you know, if someone says they mean to you and someone says they nice to you, what are you going to remember? Yeah, exactly, it's the same every single time and I don't know why humans like that. I'd love for it to be able to change that within myself, but I think most people are the same. If you hear, you know, if you hear something negative and it's wild like if I was walking down the street and someone's called out something they're like what's that Gosh problem? You know, and it wouldn't upset me at all. But on social media, I don't know, it just feels a bit different, I guess. Maybe it's a bit more personal.
Speaker 1:Good thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well some.
Speaker 1:Some days you're just like fuck it. I'm going to clap back and give it to this guy as well. But I know what you mean, brad. It's a weird concept, but yeah, it's a tricky thing mental health and especially how it's always talked about now and I thought I'll just ask and see what your thoughts were on it. But, nathan man, thank you so much for your time. I just wanted to ask, when we can, if you have any, where can they find you on the socials?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my rugby league guru podcast. People can listen to all my stuff there on the bloke in a bar podcast as well. Always plenty of content coming out there. And YouTube this year, as I mentioned, maybe going pretty hard at that. So rugby league guru, YouTube, and then Instagram, Facebook, TikTok everywhere you'll find any form of social media. I'll be there and then whatever's going to be the next thing over the next 10 years that I'll battle to understand all by there as well. Awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much, Nathan, for your time. Bro Means a lot man. I'm a no name fucking podcaster and I've just started and here you are giving me a shot, so thanks for that. I was nervous as hell, like I told you at the beginning, shedding bricks actually, you're good at it man. Thanks bro, it's been a while.
Speaker 2:I legitimately made that. Yeah, you're good at keeping conversation flat on and stuff which I think people people under appreciate. How hard it is with podcasting. Sometimes he loves you, super coaching, all that. He's always. You know those times that were like he'd tell me what I said wrong or this or that, and then I got him on the podcast once we got about five minutes into it and he went bro, I can't do this, I just can't do it. People don't realize how hard it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is hard, easy, but it's something I want to do and just that advice that you had for listeners out there that want to get into it, something I'm going to take on board, just grinding away and just keeping at it. But thank you so much. Man Means a lot. Can't wait to watch. I actually haven't watched the episode you guys dropped last night on block in the bar, so I'll get into that and keep following all your content. But thank you so much for your time tonight, bro. It's been a pleasure and all the best with rugby league but, more importantly, all the best with the wedding, bro. Yeah, that's the big one. Yeah, that's the big one. Are you getting married in Australia or overseas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, no, I get married in Australia. We're actually getting married in a nice little spot about four or five streets away, so all pretty close to home. So, yeah, it's going to be good. So yeah, it's going to be great. And yeah, thanks for having me on, mate, and if you ever need anything or anything, reach out.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thank you very well. That's the end of our website here on. Let's Talk with Winnie Vee. This is my special guest, nathan Durkin, aka rugby league guru, and I signing off. Everyone stay safe and thanks for listening. Thank you.